The All In Podcast

Episode 33 - Mindful Self-Compassion with Helle Laursen

• Florence Gillet

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In this episode, Nicola and Florence explore Mindful Self-compassion as a useful recovery tool, against perfectionism and the harsh inner critic most of us have to deal with Helle Laursen, MA. 

Helle is a Certified Mindful Self-Compassion (MSC) teacher and has over 20  years of experience supporting people on sick leave due to mental health  issues. She teaches open MSC courses online and in-person, in Denmark as well as internationally. She also teaches at the Center for MSC in the US, where she is a Teacher Trainer and Supervisor of the MSC program, as well as teaching the live online MSC program regularly.

Previously, she held the position of Leading Mentor Coach in the largest Coach Training Institute in  Denmark for 10 + years, as well as holding a position of Head of Project for a regional based 12-week program for those on sick leave from jobs due to mental health issues like stress, depression and or anxiety. Helle works with varied groups, primarily with social workers, teachers, psychologists, therapists, nurses, and doctors.

To find out more about Helle's work, visit www.nordic-compassion.com or email helle@nordic-compassion.dk

Free MSC tools are also available via Kristin Neff's website www.self-compassion.org

To find support in your HA recovery:
Get the "No Period. Now What?" book at noperiod.info/book.
Get the French version "Je n'ai plus mes regles" book at noperiod.info/livre
To join the NPNW English support group, please visit noperiod.info/support
To join the French support group, please visit noperiod.info/communaute
To make an appointment with Dr Sykes and get individual support to get your period back or improve your fertility, please go to noperiod.info/appointments
To make an appointment with Florence Gillet and get help with the body and mind changes happening in recovery please visit www.beyondbodyimage.com

You can find us on social media
No Period, Now What? on Instagram

To find support in your HA recovery:
Get the "No Period. Now What?" book at noperiod.info/book.
Get the French version "Je n'ai plus mes regles" book at noperiod.info/livre.
Get the German version "Keine periode - was jetzt?" at noperiod.info/buch.

To join our support groups, please visit noperiod.info/support
for English, noperiod.info/communaute for French, and noperiod.info/community for German.

To make an appointment with Dr Sykes and get individual support to get your period back or improve your fertility, please go to noperiod.info/appointments
To make an appointment with Florence Gillet and get help with the body and mind changes happening in recovery please visit www.beyondbodyimage.com

You can find us on social media:
Instagram:
@noperiodnowwhat in English
@jenaiplusmesregles_livre in French
@keineperiodewasjetzt in German

...

Welcome to All In, a straight shooting, science based podcast about periods, fertility, and nurturing health outside of unrealistic beauty expectations. We will mostly, but not exclusively, focus on hypothalamic amenorrhea, HA, a component of relative energy deficiency in sport, formerly known as the female athlete triad. I'm Dr. Nicola Sykes, scientist and author of the book No Period, Now What? I specialize in helping people understand how their eating, exercise, and lifestyle habits are keeping them from hormonal health and their best life. My work focuses on regaining periods, improving fertility, and breaking free of the rules underlying diet culture. My name is Florence Gillet. I'm a certified eating psychology coach, a former HA patient, and an advocate of health at every size and body neutrality. I help people let go of their obsession with size and appearance to regain self confidence, finally appreciate their bodies, and live an overall fuller, more joyful life. Every two weeks, the All In podcast brings you real recovery stories, expert insights, and new scientific research on HA, hormonal health and fertility, with an unmissable touch of body respect and women's empowerment. Just a reminder that this podcast represents the opinions of the hosts and their guests. This content should not be taken as medical advice, it's for informational purposes only. And because each person is unique, please consult your primary care practitioner for any medical questions. Music by the Andy Shulman Band, available on Spotify.

Nicola:

Hello, everybody. We are very excited today to have Helle Laursen with us she is a certified mindful self compassion teacher, MSC, and has over 20 years of experience supporting people on sick leave due to mental She teaches open MSC courses online and in person in Denmark as well as internationally. She also teaches at the Center for MSC in the U. S. where she's a teacher, trainer, and supervisor of the MSC program, as well as teaching the live online MSC program regularly. Again, MSC is mindful self compassion. Previously, she held the position of leading mentor coach in the largest coach training institute in Denmark for over 10 years. As well as the position of head of project for a regional based 12 week program for those on sick leave from jobs due to mental health issues like stress, depression, or anxiety. Helle works with varied groups, primarily with social workers, teachers, psychologists, therapists, we're so excited to have you with us today, Helle. Welcome, and could you start by telling us a bit about what led you into the work you do today as a self compassion trainer and teacher?

Helle:

Definitely, I'd love to let you know why self compassion has become the main focus of my work life. And I have a professional as well as a personal reason, and I guess the more personal reason, let's take that first, briefly. I have been the master of self criticism in my life. I try to perfect self criticism, and that worked pretty well, because there was plenty to do, right? There was always something that I could do better, or that should be. or differently in any way. So self criticism was basically my way of navigating my life. And that worked as well as it can work, I guess, until it didn't work anymore. And that was when I, I have two daughters and the youngest of them were ill for quite some years. And that ended up in me getting divorced from my, my then husband and spending those years 15 years I've been a single mom, but that crisis of her being sick for some years and me having to deal with that and all those different struggles that, that obviously you know, that I had to face there. That was a time where I just knew I had to do something different. I just didn't know what, so I searched. Everywhere. And it took me quite a long time to find out the simplicity of the power of the relationship I had to myself actually was the most powerful place I could start. So I had lots of detours. It took me a long time, but long story short, at some point, I met a therapist. who taught me the very specific, concrete, and yet subtle art of turning toward difficult feelings instead of running away from them. And over some years that changed everything for me, because suddenly, you know, my life was still messy. You know, I still had the same troubles and problems and issues I had to deal with. But I started slowly, but certainly to relate differently to myself in the midst of all of that messy life that I was in. And so I started not fearing. Whatever was here or within myself as much. And that's what I mean by it changed everything. And then in my professional life I was at that time the daily leader of that municipality based project. of people on sick leave uh, due stress and, and depression primarily. and at some point there was someone on my team, a psychologist, she said to me, you know, Helle, when you speak and when you teach and when you talk to our participants, you sound like this lady. Do you know her? And she gave me Kristin Neff's book on self compassion. And I was like: Never heard of that! Mm hmm sounds odd, doesn't it? so I still remember on the way home from work that day in my car, I was like reflecting, self compassion, self compassion, I've heard it somewhere, but I didn't remember where. Until I got back home on my bookshelf, I had Chris Germer, who's the clinician behind that Mindful Self Compassion program, I had bought his book. I'd only read a few pages, you know, that sort of, What I still tend to do, actually, just buy the books I want to read and I don't necessarily fully get through them, right? And so I was like, oh, that's curious, right? And I googled the two of them and they had, you know, just within those few years, earlier than that, created this Mindful Self Compassion and they were offering the first European teacher training, only the third teacher training of all in the world, if I recall correctly at the time. And they were offering that later that same year. So I did what I had to do and got on to that. And it's quite a brief, condensed, training program of self compassion. Right. Uh, in many ways that was what I had hoped for. Someone had told me so I didn't have to spend those 10 years finding out those different ways of how to turn toward difficulty, how to build our own self energy or self esteem in the midst of chaos or difficulties. And So it's the Mindful Self Compassion Program is a very easy and very specific concrete way into building those internal resources that makes us then stronger. So that's the personal and the professional avenue of me teaching self compassion internationally today. So,,

Florence:

Uh, That is amazing! Thank you for that Helle And yes, we're very happy to have you. I didn't know you were one of the first European professionals being trained in MSC, actually. For our listeners who don't, know, you, I don't really know anything at all about mindful self compassion. What does that mean? And how does that maybe differ from other types of compassion, self compassion, mindfulness that maybe people would have heard about?

Helle:

Yeah, there's a few different things to say. Maybe today I imagine that we'll be talking in general about self compassion Mindful Self Compassion, the MSC program specifically is an evidenced nine week program that is offered in person or online helps you build resources. is not therapeutical. it is more for the general public but anyone can join. it is basically self compassion is a way of building internal resources. So if we compare it to mindfulness training, let's take that first. mindfulness training usually begins by starting to bring awareness to what am I experiencing? Like what am I hearing or sensing internally, externally, the what am I experiencing and then relating to that, right? And in self compassion, the focus is more specifically and very particularly on how to warm up the relationship to the one who is experiencing all of that, the one who is in the midst of the experience. So rather than focusing on the What am I experiencing? Self compassion would invite you to focus upon the who is experiencing and what do I need when this is my experience. And so the mindful self compassion program is quite condensed training that goes through a lot of different areas, all of them that tends to be troublesome for us as human beings in general and look at those areas through the lens of self compassion.

Nicola:

Yeah. I was just thinking that, we don't really get much training in sort of noticing not only what's around us, but also how it's impacting our feelings. I think, I mean, certainly for me growing up, it was very much everything's on the outside and you know, we don't really think about the inside at all. So, what do you see on people's emotional and mental health when they work on implementing this mindful self compassion?

Helle:

Well, I see a lot of different things and it has huge impact, but some of the expression of it may be quite subtle. Um, so sometimes when I have like, I have a few courses running just now, one of them at the local university. And a few weeks back, we have sort of halfway midway through the program. And a few weeks ago I asked, you know, so how is self compassion starting to show up in your life, if at all, right? How are things going for you guys? And there was one who said, well, you know, this morning my car broke down, I had to take the kids to school. And usually I would be all upset saying all different things to myself, but. I decided, well, I couldn't do much, but I could actually make myself a cup of tea and just take a break in the midst of the chaos. And then I could suddenly decide how to navigate, or, you know, I could actually stay home from work for a few hours, do something at home and, you know, this and that. And so the world is still troublesome. Cars break down, you know, we have to drive kids everywhere and go to work and things don't change as such, but it's the way that I may respond to myself when things don't go the way that I had hoped that changes and that's basically at the heart of self compassion, right? How do I warm up that relationship to myself? How do I hold myself so that I, instead of being focused in on the problems, I can open up. Actually, it's a very physiological response self compassion has so I can calm down my nervous system so that my perception of whatever is here in front of me that I have to navigate in so that I see that more clearly and so that I can point to the different choices that I could make and which one would be more supportive for everything involved and everyone involved. that's what I mean by self compassion can be expressed in so many different ways, but overall the impact that I see and have seen all through the years, I've been teaching this for 10 years now, the impact is that sense of a permission slip of taking of yourself so that you can Stay grounded so that you can stay open hearted, especially when life is challenging or messy or just simply difficult.

Florence:

I have to say, Helle, I really relate very much to your master of self criticism comment to start with. I mean, I'm going to be honest here. The only reason I know Helle is that she was my trainer when I took the live online mindful self compassion course and I took it in the middle of the pandemic. So it was definitely very necessary. It was super useful. But I'm interested here to know more about as a practitioner and a trainer, if you've worked with people that have experienced difficulties around food and their body image and exercise and eating disorders and were there aspects of MSC that you or other practitioners and I think that's one of the things that you've worked with have found particularly useful in that realm, because I can really see, I can hear that most of the people we work with Nicola and I that seem to have this really difficult relationship with food and body and exercise. They are horrible. when they talk to themselves, it's really something that we see happen again and again. So I'm wondering if you have any experience in that. And you know, what do you find useful for these people that are listening to us and trying to recover and really change the way they look at themselves and they feed themselves and they rest and all of these things.

Helle:

Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Florence. And, and I really appreciate that you guys are working with this. It's such an important area, right? And so easily overlooked. I know quite a lot of people joining my online, particularly MSC over the years with these kind of issues, because they are quite common, right? But it's not always that we, you know, shout it out over the rooftops, right? So I'm certain that there are, have been a lot of participants with dealing with these kind of issues that I haven't been fully aware of. Some of them voiced it out, right and are quite up front to me as a teacher, not necessarily in the group, because we don't, you know, We don't have much time in that training to go into everyone's personal story. what I have noticed with those that I do know have issues with this kind of area is first as you pointed out, that sense of self criticism. is usually really loud. and criticism can show up many different ways, right? It doesn't need to be that sense of a parrot sitting, commenting on everything. That's how my experience, my self criticism expresses itself, but it doesn't necessarily for everyone. But what I see that has been more predominant for me or when I look at those kind of issues that we as human beings may have is that underlying sense of shame or underlying sense of working or navigating in difficult emotions. And I've come to see that quite often self criticism is just another expression of that. It's just, you know, underneath that self criticism, there's quite often a vein of shame that may be the fuel for that self criticism. And so this is why a lot of us have difficulties in navigating or changing that internal, self critical talk, because we simply can't, because it's not the real problem. It's just an expression of that shame or the difficult emotions that we carry and that we have a difficult time not getting all consumed by, right? And then self criticism, becomes just another expression of that. We talk about self criticism as being, you know, trans diagnostic, right? It shows up in anxiety and depression and in eating disorders and all sorts of difficult mental health problems. So basically self criticism is just one expression of my relationship to myself. It's something underlying that we need to look at. That's what I've noticed. I don't know if it resonates with you guys, but,

Nicola:

Absolutely. And I think, I think that the society that we live on pushes a lot of shame on us as well. Like if we don't conform in whatever way it is, you know, I think there's a lot of shame that comes from that because we should be perfect and we should be this and we should be that. And think that's a really valuable insight that shame is at the, at the root of so much of our self criticism and negative feelings. I wonder how you think that self compassion might be more useful for people in recovering from an eating disorder than just simple mindfulness. Like, again, if you could sort of explain how you see the difference, um, between those two in, in that arena, that would be lovely.

Helle:

Okay, cool. for those of us who deal with really harsh internal self criticism or maybe in having some, you know, traumas in our background of maybe tendency for depression, sometimes mindfulness can be quite difficult. Thanks You begin with, because we start seeing more clearly what's actually happening, and that can be

Florence:

hmm.

Nicola:

Mm.

Helle:

And I'd say that that was my own personal first encounter with mindfulness. That it was really uncomfortable for me because I could see with more clarity that in a criticism, that in a harsh voice, and I had no idea what to do about it.

Florence:

Yeah.

Helle:

if it's really difficult for us to be present or be mindful or, you know, start noticing what's happening within ourselves or how we relate to others or ourselves, then what self compassion does in contrast to that sense of adding in awareness, which is needed, but Self compassion just has another starting point. Self compassion would say, don't focus upon what you're noticing. Focus upon what you need just now. So if you're experiencing difficulty like wishing I was perfect or wanting to fit in or be a little bit better in whatever area of my world. If you notice that that kicks in and consumes you for a while, then ask yourself, what do I need just now? Or what could be supportive for me just now, rather than focusing on the what am I truly experiencing? Though it's not that mindfulness wouldn't be able to work with that, but you just need to work quite long time or quite far into mindfulness before you add in that more explicit warmth. So that means that for those who have an explicit self criticism or some internal trauma, so just really much shame, it can be much more subtle and supportive to add in self compassion because it's more focusing on what do I need? Maybe I do need to not focus so much on the discomfort in my body. Maybe I need to go for a walk with my dog or call my friend or talk with my cat or, you know, whatever else. And maybe I need to go shopping, you know, anything that even things that at times could be your avoidance in self compassion, we would say that can be used as a way of getting out of the discomfort. So we want to balance that, obviously, so it's a little bit more complex than the picture I'm painting just now. But self compassion would be adding in that warmth, and that is usually a easier starting point for those of us who struggle with self criticism or any kind of, of shame based disorders.

Nicola:

That's such a good point. I think that, sort of self criticism is very cold and what you're describing as warmth and thinking about what we need, that seems a lovely contrast to me, bringing warmth into our lives by bringing it to ourselves. Yeah.

Helle:

is a contrast to that inner self criticism. And it's a contrast not by trying to push away the internal inner critic, but by allowing us to have more resources so that we can notice that, oh, here the inner critic goes again. But with my internal compassionate voice, a supportive voice, what could that say? So we are actually in self compassion, sort of expanding the mental bandwidth. We are like, creating more emotional flexibility so that we can notice and stay strong, standing heads up, feet down, even in the midst of like game or difficulty, right? That will never be easy, but we are building the resources with self compassion to allow ourselves to only go in as much as we may have the resources for in that given moment.

Florence:

It's beautiful. I think it will resonate with a lot of our listeners who may want to do mindfulness, but struggle to really get there. I know that for me, I tried mindfulness a lot before actually being able to feel like it was bringing me calm and, and, and less anxiety and stuff, but with self compassion, I agree that that question of the what do I need right now is really, really powerful. Your website describes compassion as how we relate to ourselves and others when we experience difficulties. And it mentions that treating ourselves with compassion can reduce stress, anxiety, depression, self criticism, burnout. Our listeners often particularly struggle with the self criticism aspect, as we discussed. And how do you find that MSC is helpful with that part specifically, because you just said as well, it's not like we reject the harsh inner critic, but we're just going to try and focus on what do I need right now, and how does that actually help us grow into a more compassionate person with ourselves?

Helle:

Yeah, so let's talk a little bit more about the, that emotional flexibility that I just mentioned and the awareness that's needed, because the way that I would like us to learn to see the inner self criticism is as just one voice out of a lot internally, right? It is though usually the one that shouts out the loudest.

Florence:

definitely.

Helle:

and it does that for good reasons because it's actually connected to our sense of safety, right? So it's part of our protection system. So I like to use the image of, like, if we, if you were a director at a theater scene and you had, you know, like maybe 10 or 15 or 100 actors, what do I know? Then the self criticism one, the one actor out of many, would be the one that all the time takes the stage, go, Hey, you need to listen to me. Hey, I'm the most important. Oh, there's something you're not noticing, right? Just shouts out really loud and takes all of the awareness toward itself, right? So even to an extent where we don't really notice the rest of them. And so when we work with, mental health. And when we work with navigating that, it's about coming back to, oh, hey, I'm the director. I'm not the one just being directed by that self criticism That's not the one in charge of everything. I need to come back to remember that I am here in the midst of it. And that self criticism is just one voice. It may be a really loud one, right? It may be a really harsh one. It may be one that just takes over the entire stage all the time. But there are also other voices. And therefore, when we work with self criticism and self compassion, it's about turning toward that criticism with curiosity, with interest, saying, Oh, hey, I hear you. You are really loud. What do you want me to know? Or what are you trying to make sure that I notice or that I see or so that I don't get myself into harm or whatever? What are you trying to convey to me, dear self criticism? And so with that, seeing it as just one part of me, but also trying to look for the deeper intention. in the why is it screaming and jumping and taking up all the mental space. And so when I have turned toward it with curiosity and reflected upon that, then it's easier for me to turn toward those other actors on this stage. And then I would go look for that one particular that I like to call the inner compassionate self or the inner supportive voice. You can call it whatever you'd like. But the one that also has your best interest at heart. The one that also wants you to change your behavior or act differently. And the one that also wants you to be safe. But it has a completely different intention or expression. than the self criticism. Maybe it's one that says, Hey, I really care about you and that's why I'd like you to take care of yourself differently or do something other or to pay attention to this or that. And so that you could hear even when I speak from that internal self, my voice becomes different, right? Because it has a different intensity and it doesn't shout out loudly. It just sits there at, you know, the one corner at the backside and it's already there, but we need to focus upon it. We need to bring awareness to the fact that I am all of this, right? Otherwise I can't hear that more subtle voice, the softer voice from the back that says, Oh dear, what's truly the best for you just now, Because if I don't pay attention particularly to that and ask for that, then the self criticism will jump in and say, Oh, danger, danger. I'll keep away. I'll go the other way. I'll do this. I'll do that. I'll do more of it. All everything at once. Right? So that's what I mean by expanding that emotional flexibility. So that we don't actually try to push away or change the inner criticism, but we try to gain more perspective so that we have a sense of actually having a choice. We don't have a choice if we're consumed by inner critic.

Florence:

It makes total sense. We were asking how, MSC would be helpful with that self criticism. And I know Kristin Neff and Chris Germer, who, created this way of dealing with self compassion and promoted it so well. They are, simplifying sometimes by saying, would you speak to yourself like you actually speak to someone you love? And I think this is something that many of my clients, this is their first understanding when I try and bring self compassion and show them, bring them to the website and help them understand a bit better is to say why are we talking to ourselves like we hate ourselves, like we're constantly shouting and screaming and pushing for more when, you know, as you said, your voice changes when you're able to say like, Hey, what's going on? Like, what do you need? What can I do for you? Which I know for many of our clients, Nicola, they are such caring people for other people, but then they have a terrible inner way of talking to themselves. So I think that you totally answered the question. Thank you so

Nicola:

Yes.

Helle:

That's actually how we define self compassion, right? Self compassion can be defined informally at least as treating ourselves the way that we would treat a loved

Nicola:

Mm.

Florence:

Yeah,

Helle:

So it's just simply including ourselves in the circle of those that we care about.

Florence:

that really nice

Helle:

That's easier said than done.

Nicola:

Yes. One thing that I found really interesting about what you were just telling us is the idea of Not just pushing away that self criticism, but listening to it for what the nugget is that's in there in the way that our brain is trying to protect us. A lot of times people feel like. The, the idea of not listening to the criticism is fine, but there is some nugget of truth in there. And so, you know, how can I just completely ignore that? Because there is actually something that's in there. So I think the idea of listening for that nugget, but then coming at it from an angle that's more kind and caring. I think that's, I think that's a beautiful way of thinking about it. When people start practicing this mindful self-compassion, what are the biggest impacts that you see in their lives or their ways of being in the world?

Helle:

in many ways, this is actually at the heart of it, starting to support ourselves, starting to notice what I typically do toward myself or say to myself, how I typically act toward myself and see how different that is from how I respond or act toward those that I care about. And so when we start seeing that with more clarity, and when we start understanding that I won't be more self centered or weak or not accomplishing anything or self indulgent, if I start practicing self compassion, then it becomes much easier just supporting myself. And so the impact would be that sense of greater ease. A better mental health, but also a better physical health, easier to take care of my body, easier ways of making changes. Even those lifestyle changes that, you know, may take years, right? Anything that, that I would wanna accomplish that would take me many years, maybe it becomes easier staying on that path because when I fall off the track or stray from the track, it's easier to get back on. It's easier to get back on track because I learned in self compassion to have that perspective of I don't need to be perfect. I'm okay, but it's really uncomfortable to feel imperfect or to fail at something that's important for me. But anyone else would also find that same sense of discomfort. So it's not about me personally. it's about being human. And so that's what we call the perspective of common humanity. So the impact of all of that self compassion as well as that perspective of common humanity is that it makes it easier for me to see myself through the eyes of being human with vulnerabilities, with strengths. with stuff that works out well and with difficulties and issues. And the totality of that is what it's like being human. And so when I start looking at myself through those eyes, the impact is just more resilience, meaning easier come back from difficulties. It's easier navigating the difficulties in emotional life, in relationships, in larger decisions, right? So there's no specific, this is the impact. It's more that general sense of having an easier time getting back on track or an easier time taking care of myself or an easier time just standing, being grounded, not letting the difficulty impact me as much, right? So we say, in general, what the research shows is that you'll get less of what you don't like, stress, anxiety, depression, all of that, and more of what you'd like, joy, good relationships, better physical health, better mental health, and, and so forth. So the impact is subtle and yet very all encompassing actually self compassion is linked to all aspects of a good mental health um, is shown by the research by now.

Florence:

This is, this is fantastic as a response and gosh, who wouldn't want greater ease with their general way of approaching life, but also that inner life, and I think that's why you, I love that you mentioned emotional flexibility and all of that, because just like Nicola, I've, I've never been taught how to deal with my emotions. Gosh, my parents had no idea how to deal with their own emotions. Bless them. I know my mom listens. I love you, mom. But, and she will agree with that. She had no idea, I think for a lot of us, we come from sometimes culture where it's well, just, shut up and, and move on and fight harder and, you know, pick yourself up and stop complaining. And so there's this sense of, Well, yes, I mean, if we could feel a little bit more comfortable with what happens inside a lot of the time, that would definitely have a big impact on our overall way of dealing with things, but also our health in general, because we know how much this can impact our health, right? Constantly feeling in that stress, even just from our own inner critic and how we speak to ourselves. We know that this has sometimes negative implications for health as well. And eating disorders is a good example, of course. So so I think that answers my question perfectly. Thank you, Helle. For people who would want to know more about MSC, have never heard of it what would be the first point of contact? What would be something, maybe a tool that you can recommend or something they can try? I know there are plenty of resources that are actually available online. So where, where do you typically recommend people start looking for more information?

Helle:

Well, let's split that into two. So first, let me give a few sort of suggestions for what you can do just now, then you can go look for resources afterwards. Is that okay?

Florence:

Yeah, of course. Great.

Helle:

So one thing would be and we sort of, discussed a little bit more generally, noticing that sense of how do I treat a loved one? Or what do I say or do towards someone that I care about? And then start doing that toward yourself just once in a while, right? Or maybe when you are in the midst of your everyday life and you're tired or struggle with something, you could ask yourself, what would I say to my best friend? Or what would I say to whoever I know that I care about? Right? And then see if you could take that message and offer that to yourself. So in other words, these, it's just a perspective shift, right? It's not a specific, you know, sort of way to behave differently, but start noticing how you treat yourself, how you treat someone that you care about and see if you could begin once in a while adding yourself into the circle of those that you care about. So maybe that would be just taking a 10 minute nap before the kids arrive home. Or just allowing myself to enjoy the sunset or go to the beach or whatever else, right? It doesn't have to be necessarily anything fancy, but just have that perspective in what would I suggest someone that I care about and then do more of that. And in addition to that, we could do what I usually, when I teach self compassion, would call behavioral compassion. So that would be do anything of what works for you, right? Go to the spa, take cold showers, you know, whatever, watch Netflix and eat ice cream, whatever works for you, but whatever brings you joy. whatever energizes you, whatever is something that you turn toward, put on music, dance, sleep, whatever, right? All of that that you already do, listen to audiobooks do more of that, right? Do more of what makes you feel inspired or joyous or happy or just gets your mind out of that troublesome place of the self criticism and onto something other. So, what do you already do, would be the question. And then make a long list and ask yourself, what even more could I do? What can I do when I'm at work? What can I do when I'm home alone with the kids? What can I do in the weekends? What can I do once a year? You know, all do more of that, add in more of what you could already do that works for you. So that's behavioral self compassion, right? We already do know what compassion is. So just adding in more of that. So as you see now, a lot of what I teach and what I like to focus upon in self compassion is all these ways of informally adding in some of that warmth. And the third way that anyone could start doing is to have that image of you being the director and this, at least the theater stage would be the inner criticism and the inner compassionate voice, right? And just see if you could turn towards those with curiosity. If the internal criticism takes you over, then don't do it alone, then find a therapist to work with. But you can try and turn toward that internal voice of compassion, right? The one that says, I deeply, deeply care about you, and that's why I'd like you to make a change. What would that say? to you in that moment. Maybe write a letter to yourself, right, from that perspective, from that voice. So those would be three different ways of adding in more self compassion on the go already today.

Florence:

Amazing. Thank you, Helle.

Nicola:

lovely.

Helle:

And the resources, where to go look for it, you could google self compassion, you can go to my website Nordic hyphen compassion. com.

Florence:

We'll put it in the notes.

Helle:

Thank you. So there's a freebie there as well. I'm working on my English website just now, but it'll be expanded much more over the next few months. And there is a little freebie already to help you get started into this little. Change in perspective so that you can add in some more warmth.

Nicola:

Fantastic.

Helle:

own life already.

Nicola:

Um, so we just had It was, the holiday here in the U. S. called Thanksgiving, and it's family oriented and, you know, it was, hard for me this year because I've had a lot of changes in my family over the past year. so it was, really challenging and I was having a particularly hard time the day before. And I ended up put on some music and dancing around my kitchen and having a glass of wine while I was cooking and doing all of those things that you were just, I mean, that's, it's really what you were just talking about. It really me. Sort of have a, have a better day. I mean, you know, it sort of pulled me out of that sadness about what I didn't have and sort of reminded me of the things that I do still have. I love that behavioral aspect as well as the, the internal thoughts and being more compassionate to ourselves, just in our heads as, as you were just talking

Helle:

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for adding that, Nicola, because what you're talking about here is that emotional flexibility that the difficulty or the discomfort is still here, but I can add in some support, right? And not making those two polarized opposites. but being able to give myself just support or just do dancing or music or whatever is adding in some joy just because this is a difficult day for me or they're difficult, changes in our emotions. They're not putting it as either or. I can be happy when this is sorted out, but just because this is as it is, how can I support myself just now? That's the heart of self compassion.

Nicola:

Beautiful.

Helle:

Yeah. So thank you for that.

Nicola:

So we call our process of recovering, not only our menstrual period, but also sort of stepping into a life where we're less focused on food and exercise. We call that being all in. We also think of it sort of as encompassing a bit more than just food and exercise, but really just something that we're passionate about that we're, you know, feeling good about. So can you tell us a little something about that you're all in on right now? Oh,

Helle:

well, I'm all in on navigating perimenopause, and that takes a lot of, you know, difficulty actually for me. So that sense of suddenly, you know, Things just respond internally differently from what I would expect and I can't necessarily drink the coffee that I would prefer because my body just responds differently suddenly from what it used to, right? And the getting back on track is my mantra because this fall has been really, really challenging for me in many ways. There's been just, I've been swarmed with work, which is beautiful, but it's also been some family issues that needed a lot of time. And so I get off track. I forget what I know I need to do. I get out of my routine. I get away from my strength training. I drink too much coffee or I eat too much of the chocolate and all of that when things go a little bit too hectically. So I'm all in, in trying to get back on track. I think that's how navigating perimenopause is for me. Just again and again, getting back. Oh my gosh. No, again, what did I forget? What did I do? Oh, yeah, I was a bit busy. Oh, my. So back on track. Oh, God, I wish that it was just easier for me or I wish that it was, you know, over and done with sort of thing. So guess I'm all in in reminding myself of the messiness of being human, of the struggle when changes are forced upon

Nicola:

Yeah.

Helle:

and the constant having to reorient myself into what is needed, which is not always what my mind wants me to focus upon, but it's what I need to focus upon. So that's the all in process. I guess, say, trying to say yes to the process of life rather than say yes to the end product, because I can't force it. It takes time, right? And yet everything in me responds to what's happening here. So I'm trying to say yes, more and more fully to life. And that's a bit messy, quite messy at times, I'd say. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicola:

um, you know, things are forced upon us. We have changes in our body and the way that our body handles things. And, I love your idea of being all in on just embracing that messiness. I think that's fantastic.

Helle:

And that's the point because also with self compassion, actually, that we can't strengthen that muscle of self compassion enough to not run into changes or troubles or difficulties or challenges, you know, that's inevitable. Yeah. That is just inevitable, right? So the issue is more of how do I navigate that? And I say, I'm, I'm still a work in progress, definitely. And I'm remembering, reminding myself that the goal of self compassion is to be more of a compassionate mess, right? That sort of go open hearted as much as possible through life and take care of the struggle and the discomfort that is there in ourselves and in others, right? That's what I mean by being a compassionate mess. But my gosh, I still wish that things could just be sort of under control or set right or put in a particular order, you know. But it seems life doesn't run out of challenging me. I guess it is like that for most of us, right? And so it's more of How do I go down that avenue of life? Do I do that kicking and screaming, wishing things were different? There's a lot of stuff I wish was different in my life, right? Self compassion is not a vaccine that makes no trouble come your way, right? So it's very much a work in progress. It's a constant getting back on track. It's a constant allowing that messiness to be here. I still trying to add in some warmth and some support that gives me a sense of direction and meaningfulness. So I guess these are just a few more aspects of that what I'm trying to be all in on.

Florence:

It really resonates for me because I sometimes say to my clients we have this vision that healing happens and then that's it. You're healed. Everything is so easy now. And I'm like, no, that is not what happens. I find that healing is a practice. So I find that if I don't keep up, like you said, right, I don't kind of look back and say, Oh, here I am again. I drank too much coffee. I'm struggling with this. I know I should do this routine differently. And yet I don't do it. And I'm overwhelmed. And I, you know, life takes me on a different path, but then it's being able to go back and to say, what I need is this and this and this, and I'm going to try again and try again and try again. And the work in progress that you're talking about, the fact that it is messy and we're just trying to be as self compassionate as possible in the mess. That really resonates with me. Cause I think this is something that in our society, we have this idea of like, I was sick and then I'm cured, but it's not that simple when it comes to emotional health. So thank you for that. Before we leave you, thank you so much for all of your time and, wisdom. How can our listeners connect with you if they're interested to know more about your work or they want to follow one of your training courses or whatever else you offer, what would be the best point of contact? Mm hmm.

Helle:

The best point of contact would be email. Go to my website, the nordiccompassion. com, or just send me an email, helle at nordiccompassion. com. Or sign up for my newsletter because I do continuously offer international courses online, also in English. I offer it through Center for MSc in the US, but also through their European partner, Self Compassion Academy in Holland. And so we do in person training, we do online training. So that would be a starting place obviously if you want to pursue self compassion and planning on doing some more audio self paced type courses in English as well. I do have some in Danish just now, but within the next year they will be there in English. But for now, the live online or the in person is what I offer in English.

Florence:

Thank you so much, Helle. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you again. It had been three years since I followed your course and there is not one day that I don't actually use self compassion even though it is definitely still a practice and I'm not always the best at it. But I found it's been really life changing for me. And it's definitely something I recommend to most of my clients because most of them have the kind of self criticism issues that I used to have as well. So thank you so much for coming and for telling us more about MSC and we wish you the very best.

Helle:

Well, thank you both. Thank you both for wonderful questions and for a good time together. And thank you. It's been a pleasure meeting you.

Nicola:

Thank you. so

Florence:

All right. Thank you. Take care. Bye.

Helle:

Thank you. You too. Bye.

One thing that always strikes me is how different each person's all in journey is. As I often say, there are many paths to HA and many paths out of it. Your journey is unique. That is so true. If you need more support on your journey, you should definitely start with No Period, Now What?, Which you can get at noperiod.info/book. And Florence and I both work with people on different aspects of period recovery and so much more. If you'd like more personalized advice and attention, you can go to noperiod.info/appointments to schedule a time to speak with me on fixing issues underlying missing periods, blood work, diagnosis, and lots more. or beyondbodyimage. com to work with me on the fear of weight gain and making peace with food exercise in your body. I also take care of the new French version of No Period, Now What? Through the Instagram account@jenaiplusmesregles_livre. We also have joined clients and online support groups so you can access both our domains of expertise and get the physical and mental help you deserve to put an end to disordered eating once and for all. If you enjoyed this podcast and found it helpful, please subscribe and drop us a review to help more people find it. Also, join our online recovery community at noperiod.info/support in English and noperiod.info/communaute in French and let us know how All In is going for you. All In is not just about period recovery, it's about getting your life back. See you in two weeks!